Bishop Jack Iker said he and other area Episcopalians who left the national church will appeal a judge’s decision ordering his group to give up all property of the 24-county Episcopal Diocese of Fort Worth.
Bishop Jack Iker said he and other area Episcopalians who left the national church will appeal a judge’s decision ordering his group to give up all property of the 24-county Episcopal Diocese of Fort Worth.
This whole business just leaves an incredibly bad taste in my mouth. I know most of the folks on here won’t agree with me, but I still think that property should never be fought over by Christians. Scripture is crystal clear on that point. The church is not buildings. No matter who “wins” in court, nothing good will come of this.
Just once I would love to read a story about a priest (or better yet a bishop) who leads his people out of Egypt and calls 815 to tell them they turned the lights off and where they can find the keys to all the buildings. And by the way, where would you like the Post Office to forward the bills to?
To Biship Iker, go Texas! Fight the good fight. May the Lord be with you and guide you.
To Ad Orientem, Are you kidding? Those people (and perhaps their ancestors) built and paid for those buildings. It is gut-wrenching when a congregation must leave their family graves. Shame on the TEC for coveting the property! All over the country, orthodox priests/bishops and their congregations have turned off the lights, locked the door and turned the keys over to a robber baron TEC–rather than compromise on their faith. Where has the TEC sacrificed anything for whatever it believes, other than other people’s money?
Old Guy
I can only tell you what Scripture says. Buildings are buildings. My ancestors had their church buildings stolen from them too. And for most of three centuries they worshiped secretly in fields and woods to avoid being killed.
My co-religionists also had their buildings taken from them in more recent times. Many were razed. Others were turned into military barracks, gyms and even horse stables. In recent years a few have been returned. Though drowning in the blood of martyrs the Church survived. New temples are being built at a rate not seen in centuries
If you are fighting over material things then you have already lost the battle.
ICXC NIKA
John
Ad Orientem. I agree. Buildings are buildings. But given your history, you understand that something more is involved. So what is the TEC doing?
Perhaps you are not defending their actions; if not, then I apologize for my tone. I think my co-religionists are looking to the essentials and trying to look ahead to something better.
Old Guy
I am most definitely NOT defending TEO. Any comment from me that stated my true feeling about them would be deleted by the elves and get me banned. But I am not their judge (or yours). God will deal with them in His own time and way. All I am saying is that fighting over material things in God’s name is not Christian, period. There are no “well buts” here and there is no lipstick that will change this pig into a knight in shining armor.
Shake the dust from your sandals and leave the buildings behind with a note telling Ms. Schori exactly where she can put them. And then move on to the business of being Christians.
Ad Orientem, then I do apologize for my tone.
If Orthodox Anglicanism–or whatever it will be called–is going to amount to anything, then the foundations being laid now are very very important. And, since we orthodox are Anglican, if there are failings in the current structure that are worth leaving (which I believe), we need to soul search for our part in the failure of the old foundations. Perhaps we–I– valued our buildings and rituals too much, and the core of our faith too little.
And, you are right, God will deal with all of us in His own time and way.
Shalom.
RE: “All I am saying is that fighting over material things in God’s name is not Christian, period.”
Yeh — and I say it’s Christian. And much much good will come of it. Ho hum.
Go Iker!
[blockquote] Yeh—and I say it’s Christian. And much much good will come of it. Ho hum.[/blockquote]
The Bible says otherwise. Perhaps you have received an addendum?
OG (No. 2) – the buildings were paid for by some people who left TEC and some who did not. They were also paid for by a number of people who either have no current view or who passed on with no particular knowledge of or position on the latest controversies. Whatever the ultimate outcome of these disputes, the rationale for the disposition can’t rationally swing on who paid for what. People leave churches for a lot of reasons and they don’t expect to take property with them when they go.
RE: “The Bible says otherwise.”
No it doesn’t.
I’m 100% with Sarah on this one. It is irresponsible stewardship of God’s house to walk away and leave it to heretics and apostates, empowering them thereby to mislead the unsuspecting into thinking that Christian worship and teaching can be found there.
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So! It’s not good for Christians to sue each other but it is ok to steal from them.
[blockquote] OG (No. 2) – the buildings were paid for by some people who left TEC and some who did not. They were also paid for by a number of people who either have no current view or who passed on with no particular knowledge of or position on the latest controversies. Whatever the ultimate outcome of these disputes, the rationale for the disposition can’t rationally swing on who paid for what. People leave churches for a lot of reasons and they don’t expect to take property with them when they go.[/blockquote]
Right. Let’s look to the deeds. Let’s look to the incorporation documents submitted to the State of Texas at the time of formation of the diocese of Fort Worth.
That is much more just than looking to a double secret probation Dennis Canon that may or may not have been passed canonically but certainly is an after the fact unilateral trust agreement that violates the incorporation charter of the DoFW.
And here I thought liberal Episcopalians cared about justice.
The TEClub’s argument is that “We are a church. We don’t need to follow rules that other organization have to. We can treat people unfairly on our whim.”
People who care about justice would want to follow the letter and the spirit of the law – golden rule and all that – even if not compelled by the state.
Robroy – I agree that the dispute is best resolved by reference to objective indicators of legal ownership, rather than the vague, and, ultimately, unworkable, slogan of “Who paid for it?” However, your comment no. 14 seems to be a fairly reckless mis-statement of the legal position of the Episcopal Diocese in Texas or the Episcopal position in other jurisdictions. (I may have misunderstood it if there is some Club (TEClub?) you are referring to with which I am not familiar). As it is, at least to this point, the Episcopalian legal claims to property are holding up fairly well around the country and they certainly would not be that strong if the argument were “we can treat people unfairly at our whim.” You might want to try to re-formulate that somewhat. I certainly have never heard anything like that articulated as a position of the continuing Episcopalians who feel they have at least as sound a claim to property as people who leave to start or join another denomination.